Monday, October 31, 2011

Blog Event

By generations of civil, religious and de facto recognition, we know that society can and does regulate the institution of marriage. Sticking with the civil side of things, by what right does the government have authority to regulate such unions? And if they do have the right, why, and how far does their authority extend? If they do not, why.

The question of government authority to regulate marriage and the point to which it extends are likely to be a key debate in our society over the next few years and I find it unlikely that I will solve it in 1,500 words but the idea was to keep it concise…and I'm already rambling.

Back on point.

Part 1


1. By what right does the government have authority to regulate such unions?
Through history to this point, marriage has been the smallest normal foundation of every society. It's had differing levels of importance but the family unit was the primary formative experience for humans for most of our existence, and the family unit was brought about by the institution of marriage.

A government has the right to pass laws that will protect the liberty of it's people and the interest of it's nation. At first glance, I want to say the government does not have the right to regulate marriage. But on further look I realize that marriage's end, both from death and divorce. In that case, if there are no rules governing property, chaos could ensue as the assets are fought over.

There is also the matter of children and custody, we can't just go around with orphans running around stealing extra bowls of soup, someone should raise them.

This constitutes the need for involvement of impartial mediators, and is a role that the courts can provide.

So I submit that only by the virtue of the property and custody is it necessary for the government to be involved in marriage. But because of those things, the government has a right to regulate marriage insofar as it's responsibility to protect the property rights of it's citizens and the interest of involved children.

Part 2


Since they do have the right and we've discussed why, how far does their authority extend?
Who can get married? When? In what forms? Etc.
Here is gets tricky. Why, if the government's role in this is protecting children in custody disputes and properly allocating property that is being fought over by adults, then any adult should be able to enter into this contract with any other consenting adult so long I suppose as they're both citizens.

What about two men? No issue there based on our argument. Two women? Same. But what about three people? Four? 42?

My point here isn't to indicate a slippery slope argument, I don't see that here. Rather, why on earth from a purely non-theological standpoint is polygamy illegal? A government does not, based on our descriptions so far, have the right to exclude any from this scenario because the purpose of their involvement is only the kids and the stuff. Surely a court can distribute all these things among 3 as easy as 2.

It's less convenient if 116 people are involved so an extreme upper limit might be justified, but surely seven people is ok. Right? The courts can handle these disputes.

The government's authority in this matter does not give it the right to determine who can get married, regardless of any factor save age is there is an "age of majority" like needing to be 18 to enter a contract.

From a purely civil standpoint, the government's role is one of allocation and custody. There is no civil reason why any person or persons should be excluded from making their own arrangements on this.

Unless………


Part 3


Unless I'm wrong about my premise. If the government's role is more than kids and stuff, then they should have more authority.

But what more can it be?

No surprise where I'm going with this.

They can regulate marriage if marriage is more than a contract. If in fact it is an institution of importance by itself. I know I believe it's a sacrament instituted by God, but I'll play ball here. Maybe it's not.

Maybe, through evolution and adaptation, trial and error, we learned that lifetime monogamy between a man and a woman is the best way to raise kids and build a society.

If that's the case, the process can clearly be seen as one that's still ongoing. It's still within recorded history that a man could have many wives. We see the development of the one man one woman marriage as a thing of permanence based on the fact that religions helped bring it on, and no doubt faith has played a role.

But if the atheistic view is correct, then it means this happening was either an incorrect way of doing things forced on society, one of many if not infinite options for forming unions of people or the result of a world that's tried it other ways and found them wanting.

I like to think that it's option three.

And if it is option three, then parts one and two of this blog and null and void. If it is option three, the government has an obligation to protect and maybe even promote what is correct way of things.

However, in a free society the rights of those who would believe it to be option one or two must be protected as well.

So, to sum up.

Yes, the government has the authority to regulate such matters. How far that extends, as far as it pertains to custody and property is almost infinite really, I suppose governed by what the people find apropos. Unless any restrictions levied are in relation to those matters, I would consider them to be unwarranted government intervention.

----

I know I'm under the word limit here, but a bad bout of food poisoning this weekend cut into my time.

14 comments:

  1. Having now read Dungy's blog, I did fail to consider things such as tax credits and sick visitation etc.

    I think however, that those things are misplaced legally. The question isn't: Should people be allowed to marry so they can visit their sick partner and get tax credits?

    Rather it is "Why should a marriage contract be relevant to who can visit the sick, and should there be tax breaks for the married?"

    ReplyDelete
  2. Is that what you're arguing?

    What exactly are you arguing for? I'm having difficulty getting what you're talking about. You start off from a "social contract" type model for government action (like I did, and I think Matt), then you veer into an assumption that the govt is intended to enforce the best way for people to live. Then your summary seems to say that govt power is infinite, then it says it's limited by what people find apropos.

    I'm having trouble following because you're usually putting conditions on your points and assumptions. Like "If that's true", "If that's so", "If Option 3 is true".

    Can you restate part 3 and your summary?

    ReplyDelete
  3. "But if the atheistic view is correct, then it means this happening was either an incorrect way of doing things forced on society, one of many if not infinite options for forming unions of people or the result of a world that's tried it other ways and found them wanting."

    What does this even mean?

    Anyway, it looks like I was wrong. This is not a state vs. religion issue, this is a state vs. some sort of appeal to tradition that cannot be altered in any way because it is far too important for some reason. Totally different!

    Sure, I want antiquated, superstitious bigots to dictate how society is run today. This is the core of your argument, right? Ancient people "figured out" that marriage should be between a man and a woman and since civilization has currently failed to screw up beyond all repair, then there just must be something worthwhile in maintaining this system. I'm sure with their advanced scientific methods and analytical minds devoid of all forms of prejudice they were able to figure out that marriage between a man and a woman was the only way to avoid catastrophe. You know what? Maybe Sodom and Gomorrah was a test run?

    I'm sorry for being hostile, but if what you are saying is what I think you are say (and I admit I sometimes jump to conclusions), it just seems so senseless. It's as if you think civilization was founded on the nuclear family. I mean, if the Flintstone's and Jettson's are any indication, the family unit has always been that way and will always continue to be so.

    Let me ask you something. Do you really think we would be in trouble if we allowed other forms of marriage besides one man and one woman?

    ReplyDelete
  4. My argument, shortly at least, is that the government can and does have the right to do whatever it wants to marriage. Two men is just the same legally as one man and one woman if all it is is a legal contract with no other meaning.

    Where I was unclear most was the connection on this next part.

    I believe that humanity as whole did figure out that what we currently define as tradition marriage to be ideal. If that's the case, a government might be obliged to promote that type of union. In a free society, that does not mean that it should exclude all others however.

    ---

    Next point, Matt, stop being pissy. First, no I don't believe ancient people figured it out. We've only had the current nuclear family for a short period of human history.

    This also wasn't figured out based on a lab experiment, but by people living it.

    For some reason, society around the world seems to have gravitated toward this. I see the most likely options as either A) Divine providence or B) The evolution of human behavior, which would have occurred because it was a better way.

    Now as this has not been empirically proven, I revise my viewpoint. A government should not promote something like this unless it were true. Since we're talking in theory, then in theory if I were right and traditional marriage were the result of human evolution and that could be empirically known, then I think a government would have an interest in promoting that.

    Part three though I guess is all speculation. Consider parts one and two my answer to the civil authority question.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Now that you've clarified your position, I'm free to engage in hostilities.

    Government and human society. Which is the tail and which is the dog? Which is wagged by the other?

    You argue that society, through a natural evolution or whatever, has gradually found that one man one woman combo is the best way to go. That's society deciding what works best.

    Then you use that to justify the government enforcing this model of marriage. So.. Society works it out for awhile before, at an arbitrary moment, government starts deciding FOR society? Er, what? I'm of course ignoring the many aberations in the model from different societies.

    The whole premise here is that we're discounting religion and personal commitments. That's what I was lead to believe. So, with religion, a vast swath of morality goes with it. The primary role of government is not to enforce morality. Especially in democracies. The government enforces laws designed to keep order (murder, rape, theft, fraud), but not to coerce personal moral choices (sexuality).

    The general rule is not "if it works well for people, the government makes it mandatory". You know that. That's the OPPOSITE of a free society.

    So, why does the government sanction marriages anyway? Because it's a contract, yes. It's a contract. Without morality, it boils down to a contract between two people, made "official" by the authorities.

    You're free to argue against that, but you have to provide more evidence. You argue for the idea of a contract, then you leap across a chasm to try to say that the government decides the way people should live their lives.

    It would greatly simplify the matter to drop from consideration what "right" the government has. The government has the right to ajudicate what we choose. It's outlined in the constitution, but it's not an absolute law, given by nature or God. It's just a matter of practicality. The governments "rights" can and do change over time.

    ReplyDelete
  6. I am corrected, and rightly.

    If society, figured it one way, and the tide is changing, then why would society no longer be correct?

    I do not have an answer and that point it out the window when not considering religion.

    I withdraw all related arguments related to that concept.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Well, that issue died fairly quickly.

    So, perhaps we can address the elephant in the room. It's just going to keep bugging me until it is discussed and straightened out. John, do you really believe legalizing other forms of marriage will be detrimental to society? I know you think it could, if handled poorly, have some negative impact on religious freedom, but I'd like to hear about all of your concerns. Let's just get it all out in the open so we may be able to put this beast to rest.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I'm curious about that too. You've honorably conceded your points, so I don't want to press the matter; but is this a case where you feel that there is still truth in your general idea, but you just didn't argue it well enough?

    ReplyDelete
  9. Is there truth in my general idea expressed as far as society figuring our marriage is a one man one woman thing? No. Probably not. I was disproved and I should have seen that point myself.

    I argued a poor point poorly is all that happened there.

    What I'm sensing here is you want to know what I think about gay marriage.

    Are my personal beliefs that marriage is meant to be one man and one woman? Yes. Do I believe that mainstream acceptance/worldwide legalization of gay marriage will cause some societal issues? Yes I do.

    Do I have any sound arguments to prevent changing the laws of this land to allow for gay marriage that don't involve my faith? No I don't. And so I can't really oppose it in this company as those arguments hold no water with you guys.

    As Matt notes my other concerns are that as it is legalized I see a lot of opportunity to continue to try and marginalize and hinder the Church's freedom of religion.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I feel a strange sensation.

    On one hand, you are is modestly and courteously yielding on the topic. This is an endearing quality, so I don't feel like being a jerk by continually attacking you. Also, you seem to sincerely agree with the point about opening up civil union (or abolishing it for everyone, same effect).

    On the other hand, I keep getting the feeling that you're just conceding the logic of it. And that the logic isn't the most important thing. And, also, that if you were in different company, you wouldn't have conceded so easily or at all. In short, I feel like you gave up too easily and I haven't really convinced. This makes me feel like there's still arguing left to do.

    So, at this moment, I'm stuck pretty evenly between these two motives.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Well, my arguments against it right now are probably 90 percent faith based. As I don't believe this is one of those issues where a law needs to be passed to protect anyone (See: abortion) I don't have an argument for not legalizing it.

    My point if I tried to go on comes down essentially to God said so, and there's really no where to go from there.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Beyond just a hypothetical exercise, do you see marriage as a civil union, and marriage as a religious institution as two separate things? Or do you see it all (even if a civil union between two guys is performed completely outside of a church, as a legal thing ONLY) as a God-based matter, but you're just being diplomatic?

    I just get the vibe that you don't actually see civil stuff as civil stuff, that it all falls under the God umbrella, but you just keep that to yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  13. marriage is an institution implemented by God. It's a sacrament of the Church.

    However, on the civil side, its not the Church's to control. There are non-believers, as there will always be.

    I'm getting longwinded sorry.

    I see them as separate things.

    The government recognizes my union with Kelli as a marriage. They cannot take away my right to marry, because I do not require their consent. They can cease to recognize it, but I would still be married.

    The government can govern it's unions however it wants and it currently chooses to use the word marriage as well. How they handle those is a civil matter.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Alrighty dighty. My vibe was mistaken. I'm cool.

    Any birthday plans?

    ReplyDelete