Thursday, April 14, 2011

Adressing the problems, potential of eccumenical dialogue as it relates to Catholics

First let me begin in the practical world by stating clear, obvious facts that everyone already knows.

There are more than one religion on this planet. There are those with religion, those without it, those seeking it and those seeking to destroy it or ignore it. In short, a listing of all the various types of belief on earth is incomprehensibly large.

That said, we've only got one planet. There is a finite amount of space in which these belief structures must exist.

This means, of course, that to a degree we need to get along. I don't have to like or even respect Scientologists, but I can't run them over with my car or society doesn't work.

And since the western world has settled on the idea of freedom of religion, that means many times opposing believers will be neighbors in the truest sense.

All these facts have rightly led to ecumenical, that is to say inter-faith, dialogue. Often this will be a group of religious organizations banding together for a cause or sometimes banding together just to find common ground.

Let me stress, this is generally a good thing.

Christians, Jews and Muslims can find common ground in their common ancestry, Confucians and Buddhists can learn their similarities, neo-pagans and Mormons can meet face to face etc. When you put a face of a human being to a religion, unless you're a real bastard or fanatic, you're going to soften your dislike, distrust fear etc. All good things.

Here though is the issue. If you are a member of a faith that believes itself to be correct (most of them), believes that this world is only part of our existence (still most of them), believe that others will benefit by hearing of this (little less, still most) and believe that only your faith is the right one (IE, Christianity, Judaism, Islam and their offshoots), then it isn't so simple.

As Roman Catholics, we are Christianity. Of course you could call us offshoots of the Jews, that's kind of accurate but I digress.

The problem with ecumenicism today isn't ecumenicism itself, but rather the culture of total acceptance. The world is telling young people today that everything is ok. To be completely honest, in the realm of public sentiment it appears the neo-pagan religion of Wicca has won the day with it's creed of "An it harm none, do what thou will."

As young Catholics grow up, most aren't lucky enough to get private schooling that will teach them the faith. The CCD programs (religious teaching programs) for public schools kids are great, if parents bother to take them. And worse, so many Catholic parents don't know or care enough about their faith to teach their kids.

So the kids glean what they can from Sunday mass or at least from Christmas and Easter mass. Then they watch men making out on Glee, they see the (usually justifiably) negative media attention the Church gets, they date Mormons (Mary T, I'm talking to you here lol (also everyone note I'm not opposed to interfaith dating)) and at the end of the day, they've forgotten they are part of a religion of the truth and they join the religion of the world.

The same thing can happen with ecumenical dialogue. If a Catholic of weak belief or one who lacks education on the faith enters into such dialogue, instead of coming out of it with the correct belief that "We are all God's children," he may leave it thinking "We all serve the same God," which unfortunately isn't exactly true.

Your basic Abrahamic religions all recognize the same God's existence, but the contradiction in beliefs, the differences in the plan of salvation in each, are too great to be said to serve the same purpose completely. For example, Christian ultra-offshoot Branch Davidians believe David Koresh was God and was right to nail 14-year old "wives" of his. Mainstream Christianity believes marriage is between one man and one woman and that polygamy is adultery. Which is it? You see my point.

Through ecumenical dialogue the world can be a better place. Muslims can see that Jews aren't the work of the devil so much as they can be seen as conservators of scripture. Catholics can see that protestants aren't a scourge on the earth, but help cast a wider net that can bring people to the faith. Non-believers can see the good believers do and vice versa.

With ecumenical dialogue the world can be a much much much better place, but if it comes at the expense of abandoning the truth then as nice as it might be, it's not a place worth living in.

10 comments:

  1. Its funny to recall that 50 years ago (alas, I remember it well), political pundits said that John Kennedy couldn't possibly win the Presidential election...after all, he was a Catholic. ;-)

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  2. So, let's get something cleared up. Remember when I called you out for putting blind faith into Christianity when you had no experience practicing other faiths? Do you remember what your response was? As I recall, you created your own little safety net by claiming that most of the religions (at least the more prominent ones) can lead to salvation. Of course, you essentially claimed Christianity was more true...not that you would actually know this.

    Anyway, if most of the world's religions can lead to salvation, then why would you have a problem with the ecumenical mindset at all?

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  3. Is this really a serious danger?

    Every time I hear someone vehemently rejecting moral relativism (usually catholic) I wonder, who is asserting moral relativism? Where is this pro-relativism party that is undermining society? Save a couple of idiots I met in college (who really didn't think the matter through), I've never once met a true relativist.

    When people do support it, they're supporting a kind of cultural relativism, or tolerance. Nobody's saying there's no such thing as objective truth. If there is a problem with catholic youth, it's a problem of indifference to the whole issue, not that they're forsaking a "religion of truth" in favor of the "religion of the world".

    Reading this, I can't decide whether you're OK with inter-faith dialog or against it. You support it at the same time that you claim it's undermining your church. You complain about kids watching the homosexuals on glee, and dating mormons, then you note for the record that you aren't opposed to inter-faith dating.

    You definately seem to firmly support tolerance between religions, but the effect that tolerance brings - sympathy for the point-of-view of another religion - surprises you? Alarms you?

    This is some species of timid evangelism. Your Truth is paramount to all concerns, nothing is more important... But you don't want to appear a bigot, because people won't listen to you..

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  4. Jerry, and the same stigma needs to be removed from other faiths as well.

    Matt, if that's how I put it, I spoke heresey. As I say here I put my faith in Gods mercy that those outside his church can be saved. What is certain to me is that the odds go down as u abandon the true faith and move away.

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  5. Dungy. In short , yes it's a danger and a serious one from the catholic view. To us, souls really are on the line here.

    I gotta remember to watch my terminology on here. I don't believer there is a religion of the world per se. What I mean us that they cease to practice the faith in favor of cultural norms etc.

    I'm all for a dialogue but not an improper one. I guess my long winded point is we Catholics are doing a piss poor job of teaching the faith.

    And when a poorly trained catholic is confronted by the cultural norms and contacts of other faiths

    They fold faster than crackheads at the laundrmat
    We need to foster tolerance of existence, without allowing for an internal acceptance of validity.

    Make more sense?

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  6. Here's an interesting thought about "teaching the faith." If memory serves me, Pope John Paul, beloved as he was, still held to very strict interpretations of church doctrine. This rigid position caused many parishioners to simple fade away. Pope Benedict, from what I've heard has placed a greater emphasis in making the church more accessible and friendly to the laity. His attitude seems to be, "if you can't get them in the doors, you'll never teach them."

    Bear in mind that I'm not even a Catholic. But I have been to mass a couple times. I originally thought it was a travesty to abandon Latin for Enlish (but, I've gotten used to it.) Now, what will happen with the Missal. Several passages I've read seem really convoluted.

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  7. No, I wasn't at all confused by your terminology, but I was confused about where you are laying the blame (or just the cause) for this danger.

    You seem at times to indicate that the secular, wishy-washy, flip-flopping, homo-watching, mormon-dating (in a word, liberal) modern culture is to blame for people abandoning their faith.

    You also indicate (clarifying in your last comment) that it's a problem of catholic upbringing, and the failure to train the faithful to distinguish between tolerance and acceptance.

    The effect (on me anyway) is that you allude to a vastly arrayed secular force set against the catholic people and objective truth - HOWEVER - that's not the REAL problem. The REAL problem is raising young catholics not to fall in with that malevolent and conspiratorial group. I just don't understand why you're not trying to attack that conspiracy (if that is what you believe, which hasn't been established), instead of the inadequate response to it.

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  8. But it works both ways. The parents, community needs to do a better job but that still doesn't remove all responsibility from those brought up poorly.

    "You seem at times to indicate that the secular, wishy-washy, flip-flopping, homo-watching, mormon-dating (in a word, liberal) modern culture is to blame for people abandoning their faith."
    Not all of it is to blame per se, but it plays a role. Much of secular culture is indifferent, not evil.

    "
    The effect (on me anyway) is that you allude to a vastly arrayed secular force set against the catholic people and objective truth - HOWEVER - that's not the REAL problem. The REAL problem is raising young catholics not to fall in with that malevolent and conspiratorial group."
    -Again it's both. There are not many groups that really believe they are actively against the Church and truth etc., but they are. That is an issue and though I know this somehow flags me as crazier than other Christians but some of it is likely the result of the devil's active role in the world.

    My point, admittedly not made clear, is to address what I believe is a pervasive sentiment in the Church that all ecumenical activity etc. is good in and of itself. I don't blantantly disagree but I am cautioning against engagement in such activity and dialogue by members of the Church that are not properly armed in their belief.

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  9. Fair enough.

    I bow out! I wash my hands!

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  10. "Matt, if that's how I put it, I spoke heresey."

    Yeah, probably. I know the lengths you'll go to try to win an argument...haha.

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